Judy Miller is up!
Here she comes. White shirt, big lapels. No glasses. Checks her counsel, puts glasses on (they're on a fancy string around her neck), is nodding. She doesn't seem like she's breathing.
Jury coming in.
Fitz up.
She sits down, then stands up to take the oath.
Fitz, please state name, and spell last name.
M: Judith Miller Freelance journalist.
F: when did you first begin to work for NYT.
M: 1977. SEC reporter, financial affairs, state department, Cairo bureau chief, Paris correspondant, deputy bureau chief, deputy media editor. special correspondant to gulf war. Then "freeranging investigative reporter."
F: how did you first come to know Libby
M: Coauthoring book on bioweapons. 2001
F: Coauthors
M: William Broad, Steven Engelburg.
F: How did your work on the book Germs come to bring you in contact with Libby.
M: Engelburg said Libby was helpful.
F: When did you meet Libby
M: I believe I called him and asked to see him.
F: Approximate time frame
M: Between 9/11 and beginning of Iraq war.
F; Eventually meet
M: In OEOB, said he had liked our book germs, had not received inscribed copy that others who had contributed had recieved,
F: Did you send one
M: He said that he had liked my reporting on WMD and terrorism to the US and I expressed a desire to interview him and talk to him on regular basis. When I was working on something on which he might be helpful. He said that would be fine, but would prefer not to see his name in print, we could continue to meet so long as I referred to him as AO or SAO.
F: On the record, off the record, deep background.
M: On the record, one could use material and could attribute to individual. Background could use it, but could not name indiv, could name agency. Deep background, could use info but not identify agency or part of govt where indiv worked. Off the record, only if I confirmed it elsewhere.
2:20pm ET
Jury coming in.
Fitz up.
She sits down, then stands up to take the oath.
Fitz, please state name, and spell last name.
M: Judith Miller Freelance journalist.
F: when did you first begin to work for NYT.
M: 1977. SEC reporter, financial affairs, state department, Cairo bureau chief, Paris correspondant, deputy bureau chief, deputy media editor. special correspondant to gulf war. Then "freeranging investigative reporter."
F: how did you first come to know Libby
M: Coauthoring book on bioweapons. 2001
F: Coauthors
M: William Broad, Steven Engelburg.
F: How did your work on the book Germs come to bring you in contact with Libby.
M: Engelburg said Libby was helpful.
F: When did you meet Libby
M: I believe I called him and asked to see him.
F: Approximate time frame
M: Between 9/11 and beginning of Iraq war.
F; Eventually meet
M: In OEOB, said he had liked our book germs, had not received inscribed copy that others who had contributed had recieved,
F: Did you send one
M: He said that he had liked my reporting on WMD and terrorism to the US and I expressed a desire to interview him and talk to him on regular basis. When I was working on something on which he might be helpful. He said that would be fine, but would prefer not to see his name in print, we could continue to meet so long as I referred to him as AO or SAO.
F: On the record, off the record, deep background.
M: On the record, one could use material and could attribute to individual. Background could use it, but could not name indiv, could name agency. Deep background, could use info but not identify agency or part of govt where indiv worked. Off the record, only if I confirmed it elsewhere.
2:20pm ET
Update 2:
M: continued to talk to Libby, through Libby's assistant, never email.
M: Take notes on steno notebook, try to write down what she or he says, then go back and underline or add things, sometimes I do that contemporaneously. Then when notebook is full, I do an index on the front page, timing, and subject matter.
F; How much of the writing in your notes when you were interviewing.
M; Almost all is done contemporaneously.
F: If you go back, when do you go back.
M: depends on deadline.
F :conventions when you make highlights or changes.
M: Tend to use a different pen or pencil so I know which are contemporaneous and which after the fact.
F :conventions of highlighting
M: Underline important things Asterix, a box around important subject or topic, when I think theres something I know or need to ask, on back of preceeding page or in brackets.
F: If they change topics.
M: I draw a line
F: If they change ground rules
M: I note that in margin
F: Early part of 2003. Overseas?
M: WMD hunters, went in February, joined unit in March,
M: Came back in June permanently, June 8
F: easy access to newspapers from America
M: No access
F: Assignment following Iraq, either by your self or a team,
M: A team or reporters looking into whether or not WMD had been flawed or distorted. Why they weren't being found.
F: Who else
M: Several reporters, I was supposed to write about actual hunt for WMD on ground in iraq and how and why flawed, and provide info for the other part of the project.
F: You were going to focus on WMD but any info you'd get you'd provide to fellow reporters.
M: State
M: I was surprised to see a great debate, a very angry one on whether or not WMD had been distorted or WH had lied.
F: where was the anger directed
M: At Admin, at media in particular, and me. [you think?!?!?!]
F: Did there come a time when you met with Libby
M: In OEOB, June 23. (Voice waivers)
M: Mr. Libby appeared agitated and frustrated and angry
F: How could you tell
M :He's a low key and controlled guy, what he said made me think I was correct. He was concerned that CIA was beginning to backpedal to distance self from unequivocal estimates it provided before the war through a "perverted war of leaks."
F: Did the topic of Joseph Wilson come up
F: What do you recall was said
M: His office had learned that he had been sent overseas, initially referred to as clandestine guy. VP had asked about a report in Winter 2002, in Africa, CIA had sent Mr Wilson out to investigate claim.
F: Was Libby saying VP sent WIlson
M: the contrary. He said that VP did not know that Mr Wilson had been sent.
2:29pm ET
Update 3:
F: What he said about Winter 2002 and how it related to trip.
M: There had been reports, a report had gone up to the Hill indicating that Iraq hunting for uranium in Niger. VP had asked about those reporters, agency had taken upon itself to find out more. In the beginning he referred to Wilson as clandestine guy.
F: Mr. Wilson's wife (voice not in great shape)
M: Yes, when he was discussing intell reporting, he said his wife (referring to Wilson) worked in the bureau
F: What did you understand bureau to mean
M: I was a little unsure, My understanding was FBI, but the context it was clear he was referring to CIA
F: Any particular bureau?
M: I thought he was using bureau to refer to Nonproliferation bureau, but I wasn't sure.
F: How did you write it in notes
M: In parentheses. He had mentioned it as an aside or because I was puzzled by it. I put a question mark about it.
F: Why
M: I can't be sure.
F: any other discussion.
Sidebar.
Judy slouches, looks at lawyers.
2:32pm ET
Update 4:
Big eyes, looking forward.
F: Any other conversation about pres and WH and CIA?
M: Yes, Mr Libby seemed really unhappy and irritated about the fact that he accused CIA of leaking info that would distance agency from earlier estimates. He said that nobody had ever come to WH from CIA and said Mr. Pres, this is not correct, this is not right. He thought if CIA had such doubts they should have shared them
F: relevance to Wilson
M: People were beginning to focus on Wilson, but Wilson was a ruse, an irrelevance
F: Did you cover the area you were assigned to.
Walton :Was he using Wilson's name
M: First as a clandestine guy, then began talking about Joe Wilson by name
F: Returning to conversation about the wife working in bureau, did he indicate whether he had heard it from reporters
M: NO
F Op-ed?
M Yes. I was surprised by it. Because it was first time that someone who had purported to be part of collection mechanism, first time someone was publicly alleging that admin had lied or distorted info about WMD. It was a serious charge. Second thing that surprised me, I wondered how the CIA would have permitted him to write such an article attacking the president.
Now speaking with her hands.
M: Or excuse me sir–or whether it had approved it.
F: You met with Libby again
M: July 8 at St Regis, in dining room. Mr Libby's choice. About 2 hours.
F: Did Libby have papers
M: piece of paper in pocket
F: Single or more than one
M: Don't remember. Libby was frustrated, quietly agitated. more wideranging discussion about intell that admin had collected and Powell presentation.
F: June 23 ground rules:
M: Off the record
F: At beginning of July 8
M: No discussion at beginning of specific attributions
F: Mr Wilson was discussed, did ground rules remain same
M: Ground rules changed. Libby said, when we shifted into alleged efforts to acquire uranium, he wanted to be identified on deeper background and I think he said something like Former Hill staffer
F: had you ever been asked by him before to treat him as Former Hill staffer
M: No
F: demeanor?
M: Equally frustrated and unhappy
F: what discussed. [Judy uncomfortable]
M: Said plenty of info before Powell presentation was given, supporting Iraq hunting uranium, it had been shown that Iraq HAD acquired uranium in Africa, prior to 1st gulf war, in 80s IAEA stated that Iraq had acquired, after that several different reports that Iraq in market again for uranium. 2 reports, for a long-term arrangement for large quantities, and then a shorter term amount, then referred to another report, a third report, the arrival of a delegation in 1999 this delegation was seeking a broader trade relationship, since Niger only had one export, officials had concluded that Iraq was interested in uranium, Author of this report was Joe Wilson. The report had gone up to the Hill. Talking about info provided to Hill, which had prompted VP questions.
F: Did he indicate who provided this report
M: CIA
F: Discussion about Mr. Wilson's wife on this occasion.
M: Two streams of reporting on uranium and effort by Iraq to acquire uranium, first stream reports like Wilson, –then made an aside, Wilson's wife works at WINPAC Weapons Intelligence Nonproliferation and Arms Control, specifically focused on WMD.
F: Before June 23, had you ever heard that Wilson's wife worked at CIA/
M: Not before that meeting
F: On July 8, any new info
M: WINPAC was new
F: Any discussion of covert or non-covert?
M: Not that I remember no, No discussion whether she was classified or non-classified.
F: Any discussion of learning this from other newspaper reporters.
F; discussion about NIE
M: Defended NIE, based on reporting from many different sources He said classified version even stronger, it was not at all equivocal. Said if anything classified was stronger
F; Any qualification, any place where a doubt would be expressed
M: Yes, didn't know classified or unclassified, said INR had expressed doubts about uranium hunting, alleged uranium hunting activities, had been included in appendix. What he was saying was that these doubts not prominently featured. He said policy makers had not seen them
F: Did you take notes, anything particular about process
Objection sustained
F: Pen or pencil
M: Used pen. The pen didn't work
2:46pm ET
F: Any other conversation about pres and WH and CIA?
M: Yes, Mr Libby seemed really unhappy and irritated about the fact that he accused CIA of leaking info that would distance agency from earlier estimates. He said that nobody had ever come to WH from CIA and said Mr. Pres, this is not correct, this is not right. He thought if CIA had such doubts they should have shared them
F: relevance to Wilson
M: People were beginning to focus on Wilson, but Wilson was a ruse, an irrelevance
F: Did you cover the area you were assigned to.
Walton :Was he using Wilson's name
M: First as a clandestine guy, then began talking about Joe Wilson by name
F: Returning to conversation about the wife working in bureau, did he indicate whether he had heard it from reporters
M: NO
F Op-ed?
M Yes. I was surprised by it. Because it was first time that someone who had purported to be part of collection mechanism, first time someone was publicly alleging that admin had lied or distorted info about WMD. It was a serious charge. Second thing that surprised me, I wondered how the CIA would have permitted him to write such an article attacking the president.
Now speaking with her hands.
M: Or excuse me sir–or whether it had approved it.
F: You met with Libby again
M: July 8 at St Regis, in dining room. Mr Libby's choice. About 2 hours.
F: Did Libby have papers
M: piece of paper in pocket
F: Single or more than one
M: Don't remember. Libby was frustrated, quietly agitated. more wideranging discussion about intell that admin had collected and Powell presentation.
F: June 23 ground rules:
M: Off the record
F: At beginning of July 8
M: No discussion at beginning of specific attributions
F: Mr Wilson was discussed, did ground rules remain same
M: Ground rules changed. Libby said, when we shifted into alleged efforts to acquire uranium, he wanted to be identified on deeper background and I think he said something like Former Hill staffer
F: had you ever been asked by him before to treat him as Former Hill staffer
M: No
F: demeanor?
M: Equally frustrated and unhappy
F: what discussed. [Judy uncomfortable]
M: Said plenty of info before Powell presentation was given, supporting Iraq hunting uranium, it had been shown that Iraq HAD acquired uranium in Africa, prior to 1st gulf war, in 80s IAEA stated that Iraq had acquired, after that several different reports that Iraq in market again for uranium. 2 reports, for a long-term arrangement for large quantities, and then a shorter term amount, then referred to another report, a third report, the arrival of a delegation in 1999 this delegation was seeking a broader trade relationship, since Niger only had one export, officials had concluded that Iraq was interested in uranium, Author of this report was Joe Wilson. The report had gone up to the Hill. Talking about info provided to Hill, which had prompted VP questions.
F: Did he indicate who provided this report
M: CIA
F: Discussion about Mr. Wilson's wife on this occasion.
M: Two streams of reporting on uranium and effort by Iraq to acquire uranium, first stream reports like Wilson, –then made an aside, Wilson's wife works at WINPAC Weapons Intelligence Nonproliferation and Arms Control, specifically focused on WMD.
F: Before June 23, had you ever heard that Wilson's wife worked at CIA/
M: Not before that meeting
F: On July 8, any new info
M: WINPAC was new
F: Any discussion of covert or non-covert?
M: Not that I remember no, No discussion whether she was classified or non-classified.
F: Any discussion of learning this from other newspaper reporters.
F; discussion about NIE
M: Defended NIE, based on reporting from many different sources He said classified version even stronger, it was not at all equivocal. Said if anything classified was stronger
F; Any qualification, any place where a doubt would be expressed
M: Yes, didn't know classified or unclassified, said INR had expressed doubts about uranium hunting, alleged uranium hunting activities, had been included in appendix. What he was saying was that these doubts not prominently featured. He said policy makers had not seen them
F: Did you take notes, anything particular about process
Objection sustained
F: Pen or pencil
M: Used pen. The pen didn't work
2:46pm ET
Update 5:
F: Did you talk to other people
M: I think I did, as soon as I remember learning about Wilson's wife
M: I don't remember who, I consulted my notes, references by initials and names, not tied to any interview in any notebook, can't remember whether it was before or after info became public.
F: Did you speak to him again
M: Wanted follow-up. We agreed to speak on phone, I recall less about that meeting. The first time Libby called me I was getting into a taxi, I couldn't take notes, Didn't want to talk in a taxi, spoke from home in Sag Harbor
F: Did you take notes, have you reviewed those notes, clear memory of conversation
M; Not very clearly–
F: what do you remember
M: I remember telling him that I didn't think I was going to write a story about it, the NYT wasn't interested in pursuing Plame story. We talked about retraction of 16 words. It was more following up on other two conversations. Don't have specific memory of other things
F; saw Libby in person
M: In Jackson Hole WY, at a rodeo, I went with my husband. This figure approached me, began talking to me, it became time to introduce husband, it became clearer I didn't know who it was. Judy, you don't know who this is, sunglasses, black t-shirt, cowboy boots. I had never seen him in any thing but a suit. Just some banter about meeting in Aspen. Meeting of Aspen stataegy group. Topic had been lack of WMD in Iraq.
F: A subpoena, what did you do in response
M: I decided to fight the subpoena
F: Where, who
M: Judge Hogan, we lost effort to quash subpoena, we appealed, Federal Appellate court, our appeal was rejected, appealed to SCOTUS, SCOTUS declined to hear case. I returned to Hogan's chambers, he ordered me to comply, I told him I did not have a waiver from my source that I believed was person. I was held in contempt.
F; You violated order of court
M: I did not testify. I was sent to jail at Alexandria detention center, for 85 days. Shortly before I was released received waiver from Libby and opportunity to question him on phone and you agreed to narrow focus of questioning to mr. Libby and to the subject matter of Plame Wilson leak.
F: After released, what did you do
M: Testfied before GJ, I testified the next day,
F: Did you tell them about July 8 meeting, and phone conversations later that week, did you described June 23 meeting
M: I did not, I didn't remember it.
F: Were you asked to do anything
M: You asked me, I couldn't pinpoint time of second meeting in Sag Harbor if I would check notebooks, to better place time.
F; Did you do that
M: I found, when I returned to my office, I looked under my desk there was a shopping bag full of my notebooks. Looked through July, picked up June, and discovered entire conversation in June, that I had forgotten about. I happened to be on phone with Bennett, urged him to call you and tell you there was more info
F: Did you return to GJ and describe that conversation?
2:55pm ET
M: I think I did, as soon as I remember learning about Wilson's wife
M: I don't remember who, I consulted my notes, references by initials and names, not tied to any interview in any notebook, can't remember whether it was before or after info became public.
F: Did you speak to him again
M: Wanted follow-up. We agreed to speak on phone, I recall less about that meeting. The first time Libby called me I was getting into a taxi, I couldn't take notes, Didn't want to talk in a taxi, spoke from home in Sag Harbor
F: Did you take notes, have you reviewed those notes, clear memory of conversation
M; Not very clearly–
F: what do you remember
M: I remember telling him that I didn't think I was going to write a story about it, the NYT wasn't interested in pursuing Plame story. We talked about retraction of 16 words. It was more following up on other two conversations. Don't have specific memory of other things
F; saw Libby in person
M: In Jackson Hole WY, at a rodeo, I went with my husband. This figure approached me, began talking to me, it became time to introduce husband, it became clearer I didn't know who it was. Judy, you don't know who this is, sunglasses, black t-shirt, cowboy boots. I had never seen him in any thing but a suit. Just some banter about meeting in Aspen. Meeting of Aspen stataegy group. Topic had been lack of WMD in Iraq.
F: A subpoena, what did you do in response
M: I decided to fight the subpoena
F: Where, who
M: Judge Hogan, we lost effort to quash subpoena, we appealed, Federal Appellate court, our appeal was rejected, appealed to SCOTUS, SCOTUS declined to hear case. I returned to Hogan's chambers, he ordered me to comply, I told him I did not have a waiver from my source that I believed was person. I was held in contempt.
F; You violated order of court
M: I did not testify. I was sent to jail at Alexandria detention center, for 85 days. Shortly before I was released received waiver from Libby and opportunity to question him on phone and you agreed to narrow focus of questioning to mr. Libby and to the subject matter of Plame Wilson leak.
F: After released, what did you do
M: Testfied before GJ, I testified the next day,
F: Did you tell them about July 8 meeting, and phone conversations later that week, did you described June 23 meeting
M: I did not, I didn't remember it.
F: Were you asked to do anything
M: You asked me, I couldn't pinpoint time of second meeting in Sag Harbor if I would check notebooks, to better place time.
F; Did you do that
M: I found, when I returned to my office, I looked under my desk there was a shopping bag full of my notebooks. Looked through July, picked up June, and discovered entire conversation in June, that I had forgotten about. I happened to be on phone with Bennett, urged him to call you and tell you there was more info
F: Did you return to GJ and describe that conversation?
2:55pm ET
Update 6:
F: Your pen wasn't working, did you take notes?
M: I did
Jeffress up
J: this conversation that you described in such detail–when you first appeared, did you remember that at all, didn't remember a thing about it, Today you've described in great detail
M: No, the highlights of it
J: Something that refers to one entry about wife works in bureau
M: Most of that meeting had to do with Mr Wilson and Niger (Drinks water)
J: Do you recall that investigation began Late 2003
J: Remember when Novak named Ms. Plame? Didn't you read articles and watch television reports?
M: I remember that an investigation was opened.
J: Did you tell Taubman at NYT that you had not been recipient of any calculated leak
M: Later on, I told him that I had discussed Ms. Wilson, Ms. Plame, with people, but that I didn't think I was the target of concerted leak campaign, because I didn't know if there was one. (drinks more water, looks at lawyers, not breathing again)
J: Do you recall writing a letter to MoDo? Do you recall writing that Taubman
M: Then bureau chief, NYT bureau chief
J: Do you recall him asking a group of reporters a question, do you recall him asking that question
J: You were unaware that such a campaign existed?
J: You never wrote anything about Wilson's wife. Did you recommend doing so
M: To Washington Bureau Chief, Jill Abramson
J: What is your recollection of your conversatoin
M: Very short time after second meeting with Libby, closed the door, outlined some of the highlights, told her there was something I thought we ought to follow up on, you ought to have someone pursue this whether Joe Wilson's wife worked at agency. She was distracted. It was tumultuous period, Exec Ed had been fired, She just said mmhmmm.
M: She's the managing editor in NY.
Walton :Approach the bench please
3:03 pm ET
Short recess
M: I did
Jeffress up
J: this conversation that you described in such detail–when you first appeared, did you remember that at all, didn't remember a thing about it, Today you've described in great detail
M: No, the highlights of it
J: Something that refers to one entry about wife works in bureau
M: Most of that meeting had to do with Mr Wilson and Niger (Drinks water)
J: Do you recall that investigation began Late 2003
J: Remember when Novak named Ms. Plame? Didn't you read articles and watch television reports?
M: I remember that an investigation was opened.
J: Did you tell Taubman at NYT that you had not been recipient of any calculated leak
M: Later on, I told him that I had discussed Ms. Wilson, Ms. Plame, with people, but that I didn't think I was the target of concerted leak campaign, because I didn't know if there was one. (drinks more water, looks at lawyers, not breathing again)
J: Do you recall writing a letter to MoDo? Do you recall writing that Taubman
M: Then bureau chief, NYT bureau chief
J: Do you recall him asking a group of reporters a question, do you recall him asking that question
J: You were unaware that such a campaign existed?
J: You never wrote anything about Wilson's wife. Did you recommend doing so
M: To Washington Bureau Chief, Jill Abramson
J: What is your recollection of your conversatoin
M: Very short time after second meeting with Libby, closed the door, outlined some of the highlights, told her there was something I thought we ought to follow up on, you ought to have someone pursue this whether Joe Wilson's wife worked at agency. She was distracted. It was tumultuous period, Exec Ed had been fired, She just said mmhmmm.
M: She's the managing editor in NY.
Walton :Approach the bench please
3:03 pm ET
Short recess
Update7:
Judy back. Looks like she's doing breathing exercises, pouring herself water. Got out of chair and is now back. Gets more water. Thanks person who brings more. Looking around cautiously. Closes eyes. Breathes. Breathes out. Looking straight foward. Head darts nervously. Staring forward. Shifts in chair. Looks toward Libby's team? Looks towawrd lawyers. Adjusts blouse. Looks at lawyers again. looks down, folds arms. Looks down. Looks toward Libby's team. Folds arms, leans back, turning in swivel chair. Takes glasses off. Looks for tissue to wipe her hands.
This is not the picture of someone who is relaxed.
Jury back in.
3:16 pm ET
Update 8:
Jeffress back up.
J: Let's go back to the beginning of the investigation that began–do you recall when it began?
M: I don't recall, I don't remember when the Taubman discussion was
J: Did it occur to you to think whether you were somebody to whom such a leak had been attempted.
M: I was concerned [pasue] sir
J: Did you remember that meeting.
M: I don't remember what I remembered then.
J: You were issued a subpoena, you retained counsel or NYT retained counsel, did you think, what you would say if they asked you questions
M: I wasn't being asked what I remembered at that time, sir
J: Did you remember at that time your June 23 meeting
M: I don't know, I discussed my meetings with Libby within my newspaper
Jeffress back up.
J Let's go back to the beginning of the investigation that began–do you recall when it began?
M I don't recall, I don't remember when the Taubman discussion was
J Did it occur to you to think whether you were somebody to whom such a leak had been attempted.
M I was concerned [pasue] sir
J Did you remember that meeting.
M I don't remember what I remembered then.
J You were issued a subpoena, you retained counsel or NYT retained counsel, did you think, what you would say if they asked you questions
M I wasn't being asked what I remembered at that time, sir
J Did you remember at that time your June 23 meeting
M I don't know, I discussed my meetings with Libby within my newspaper
J Did you discuss the June 23 meeting within your newspaper
M I discussed a series of meetings I don't recall referring to that specific meeting, I discussed my concern about possibly receiving a subpoena. I was not thinking about what conversations before I received the subpoena,
J When was the subpoena
M Sir, the subpoena asked for meetings and discussions from July. My counsel asked me to review my notes pertinent to July, that's the information I reviewed, I didn't look at info before or after
J Did you think about it?
[Jeffress keeps screwing up date, Judy and Jeffress sharing a laugh]
M I know I expressed concern to in-house counsel, I don't believe we discussed a specific date. I was subpoenaed from July until the Novak column appeared
J Isn't it true that you didn't remember
M Between time I received the subpoena and time I
M I did not
J Did you remember any conversation between time you got subpoena to time of tha meeting
J Is the answer to my question that you didn't remember meeting with Libby on June 23
Walton–I don't think she said that rephrase
J Did you remember meeting with Libby on June 23, you didn't remember it after, when you were fighting the appeal.
M No, I didn't remember a specific meeting
J Did you think about this matter while you were there in Alexandria Jail
M I thought about importance of protecting confidentiality of Mr Libby until I ever got a waiver. I thought about how I would be sure that Prosecutor wouldn't be conducting a fishing expedition.
J You didn't remember when you were in jail, when you got out of jail, you went before the GJ, you swore to tell the truth, you were asked, when you went into the GJ, do you recall if you met with Libby in late June, by first meeting with Asst Jenny. The first GJ at page 11.
GJ transcript on screen
3:24pm ET
Sidebar
Update 9:
Judy trying to follow sidebar. Then she loks toward Libby. Swallowing hard, She IS ONE STRESSED person. Looks to lawyers. Tries to look at sidebar. Arms folded, looking hard to her right. Looking for something, looks like she's sweating under her eyes. Looking for tissue or something, Rubbing nose with back of sleeve. Unlucky Judy, just when she gets her tissue.
Now bringing up GJ testimony.
And do you recall if a few weeks earlier you had met with Mr. Libby some time in late June, by first meeting with his assistant, Jennifer or Jennie.
I have a very, I don't know if I met with him. I remember meeting with Jennie.
J You didn't go into the GJ to lie.
M I did not remember it. I didn't remember that it even occurred.
J You've testified to his demeanor, very particular things that he said, said the wife "works in the bureau."
M Sir, having reviewed my notes, I have a memory of it.
M [With gusto] No, I have a MEMORY of it.
J Do you recall testifying to te GJ that
Now she's got a pissed look on her face.
J Did you say to the GJ:
I really have to rely on my notes because my memory is not good
M Sir, I'd like to see the context of that.
J Were you asked the following question.
Judy swallowing nervously.
And is it fair to say that in describing Wilson's wife, your best recollection is he did not refer to her by name?
J You remember bureau today even though you forgot about it for three years. So you don't need your notes to remember Mr Libby said Wife Works in Bureau, but you would need notes to remember anything else about the meeting
J Do your notes say "irritated"
M No I read my notes and I remembered
J Do you have a good memory
M About some things
J Do you remember appearing on Digital age, do you remember saying "Wilson's wife didn't mean a thing to me"
M I remember saying one tends to remember things one writes about
J You didn't have a good memory because it wasn't important to you
M I think what I was trying to indicate, I was focused on what had happened was what happened to intell
Jeffress plays one minute clip from program
3:37pm ET
Now bringing up GJ testimony.
And do you recall if a few weeks earlier you had met with Mr. Libby some time in late June, by first meeting with his assistant, Jennifer or Jennie.
I have a very, I don't know if I met with him. I remember meeting with Jennie.
J You didn't go into the GJ to lie.
M I did not remember it. I didn't remember that it even occurred.
J You've testified to his demeanor, very particular things that he said, said the wife "works in the bureau."
M Sir, having reviewed my notes, I have a memory of it.
M [With gusto] No, I have a MEMORY of it.
J Do you recall testifying to te GJ that
Now she's got a pissed look on her face.
J Did you say to the GJ:
I really have to rely on my notes because my memory is not good
M Sir, I'd like to see the context of that.
J Were you asked the following question.
Judy swallowing nervously.
And is it fair to say that in describing Wilson's wife, your best recollection is he did not refer to her by name?
J You remember bureau today even though you forgot about it for three years. So you don't need your notes to remember Mr Libby said Wife Works in Bureau, but you would need notes to remember anything else about the meeting
J Do your notes say "irritated"
M No I read my notes and I remembered
J Do you have a good memory
M About some things
J Do you remember appearing on Digital age, do you remember saying "Wilson's wife didn't mean a thing to me"
M I remember saying one tends to remember things one writes about
J You didn't have a good memory because it wasn't important to you
M I think what I was trying to indicate, I was focused on what had happened was what happened to intell
Jeffress plays one minute clip from program
3:37pm ET
Update 10:
Judy watching Judy, she nods when she sees herself saying "It didn't mean anything to me." She nods vigorously.
J What did you mean when you said it only bc important when this blew up
M When subpoenas were being issued
J and it was important to you when you got a subpoena, but you didn't remember that meeting
M Counselor I've already said, I just didn't remember it. [waves hand, has her indignant voice on]
J You remember being asked. Let me go back, set the stage. After you didn't remember this meeting at all, you went back after finding that there had been a meeting. What date did it say
M: 5/23.
J But you know there was a meeting on June 23
M I don't know what was in Mr Libby's calendar
J After you found that notebook, you gave it to your lawyer, you testified a second time, you testified about that conversation
M yes (meek)
J Do you remember that you told the GJ on that occasion, you had now produced all of your notes?
(no audible response–she must have nodded)
J Did you tell GJ your memory is sparked by notes
M I think in certain contexts I said something like that.
J That was a general question
M Generally I'm note driven and they bring back a memory. [realizes she has testified that she doesn't know who told her the name] Or they don't.
J Do you remember my question
M Sighs.
J Your memory is note driven and you don't have an independent memory. You said, you just have to be specific about this because my memory is note-driven. Is that true. [raises voice]
M Yes it's true
J Without using a single note you told the GJ all these details
M I've thought about those meetings, reading those notes brought back my memory about those memories.
J Your memory is largely note-drive
M Largely note-driven
3:44 pm ET
Update 11:
J Do you recall that before ever meeting with Libby on June 23 you had been looking at the stoyr about uranium
J Did you have his name Joe Wilson and his telephone number and extension.
J So who did you talk to about Joe Wilson
M I don't remember
J Do you remember talking about Joe Wilson
J You told that someone had talked to you about Joe Wilson but you don't remember too.
J Do recall telling the GJ that his name was in your notes before June 23, So someone may have told me, but I don't remember.
M reading, GJ up on sccreen.
J was that your testimony.
M Looks closely at screen, follows with her finger
J How many people did you talk to, it was lots, wasn't it
M There were many people I talked to about WMD, and I have a vague memory of talking to them about it.
J What is "it"
M Joe Wilson
J There were several people you talked to about Wilson and Plame, before Novak's columne ever came out.
J You may have talked to someone about it before Mr. Libby
M I Don't remember talking about his wife before talking to Mr Libby
J You have no memory about that
J You testified that you didn't read newspaper
M Yes
J You started reading when you came back Did you read your own newspaper?
M Not particularly. I read the competition.
J So if an article appeared in NYT on WMD after you returned, you likely would have read it.
3:49pm ET
J Did you have his name Joe Wilson and his telephone number and extension.
J So who did you talk to about Joe Wilson
M I don't remember
J Do you remember talking about Joe Wilson
J You told that someone had talked to you about Joe Wilson but you don't remember too.
J Do recall telling the GJ that his name was in your notes before June 23, So someone may have told me, but I don't remember.
M reading, GJ up on sccreen.
J was that your testimony.
M Looks closely at screen, follows with her finger
J How many people did you talk to, it was lots, wasn't it
M There were many people I talked to about WMD, and I have a vague memory of talking to them about it.
J What is "it"
M Joe Wilson
J There were several people you talked to about Wilson and Plame, before Novak's columne ever came out.
J You may have talked to someone about it before Mr. Libby
M I Don't remember talking about his wife before talking to Mr Libby
J You have no memory about that
J You testified that you didn't read newspaper
M Yes
J You started reading when you came back Did you read your own newspaper?
M Not particularly. I read the competition.
J So if an article appeared in NYT on WMD after you returned, you likely would have read it.
3:49pm ET
Update 12:
Putting exhibit up. White House in Denial–Kristof's article
J That's an article by Kristof
M Yes (sounds weak)
J Do you recall seeing that article at the time it was published
M No I don't
J Do you recall reading or hearing at the time about an unnamed ambasador?
M Yes
J Mr. Kristof writes on June 13, less than a week after you got back from Iraq, highlight first two paragraphs
Judy is reading
J Do you remember hearing about this (Condi's MTP appearance)
M mmmm hmmm, I remember hearing about it.
J It would be pretty surprising if true that something had been flatly discredited,
M [pause] Yes
J Goes onto the Wilson section of trip. Reading more of Kristof
J You came to find out that not only did Wilson not report any documents,
M I Don't know what Wilson saw and didn't see
M Libby complained about quality of Wilson's investigation
J Did you read Tenet's statement
M I probably did
J Did you read other articles concerning forgeries.
J Okay, you do remember, you do remember (in his soothing voice)
M I remember what has been claimed on all sides, but since I didn't interview Mr Wilson I don't know what he said or didn't say.I know what he said in his book.
J Oh, you read his book.
M I glanced at it.
[Media room erupts]
J Did you have any notes of meetings with Libby while you were in jail.
M No
J Concerning your decision to resist that subpoena. You decided to resist it originally and to assert what's called a journalist's privilege. You knew… did you know that SCOTUS had decided that there generally was not any privilege.
M That's one interpretation of Branzberg decision, sir
J that's one interpretation?
M Yes
J Did they show you a waiver and request to testify from Libby. Did the govt inform you that Libby had waived confidentiality.
M The govt did not assert that.
J Did you go to jail for 85 days before you didn't believe Mr Libby had signed a waiver
M I went to jail because the waiver my lawyer told me
J that's hearsay.
Judy is shaking her head in frustration.
3:59pm ET
J That's an article by Kristof
M Yes (sounds weak)
J Do you recall seeing that article at the time it was published
M No I don't
J Do you recall reading or hearing at the time about an unnamed ambasador?
M Yes
J Mr. Kristof writes on June 13, less than a week after you got back from Iraq, highlight first two paragraphs
Judy is reading
J Do you remember hearing about this (Condi's MTP appearance)
M mmmm hmmm, I remember hearing about it.
J It would be pretty surprising if true that something had been flatly discredited,
M [pause] Yes
J Goes onto the Wilson section of trip. Reading more of Kristof
J You came to find out that not only did Wilson not report any documents,
M I Don't know what Wilson saw and didn't see
M Libby complained about quality of Wilson's investigation
J Did you read Tenet's statement
M I probably did
J Did you read other articles concerning forgeries.
J Okay, you do remember, you do remember (in his soothing voice)
M I remember what has been claimed on all sides, but since I didn't interview Mr Wilson I don't know what he said or didn't say.I know what he said in his book.
J Oh, you read his book.
M I glanced at it.
[Media room erupts]
J Did you have any notes of meetings with Libby while you were in jail.
M No
J Concerning your decision to resist that subpoena. You decided to resist it originally and to assert what's called a journalist's privilege. You knew… did you know that SCOTUS had decided that there generally was not any privilege.
M That's one interpretation of Branzberg decision, sir
J that's one interpretation?
M Yes
J Did they show you a waiver and request to testify from Libby. Did the govt inform you that Libby had waived confidentiality.
M The govt did not assert that.
J Did you go to jail for 85 days before you didn't believe Mr Libby had signed a waiver
M I went to jail because the waiver my lawyer told me
J that's hearsay.
Judy is shaking her head in frustration.
3:59pm ET
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